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Post by trashcanman on Jul 4, 2009 20:05:35 GMT 2
You know there comes a time in every music fan's life when one of their favorite musicians up and breaks their heart. That awesome group who you knew about first that makes it big and turns into shit, the singer whose attempts at reinvention backfire and only make them appear out of touch and washed-up, the old-school band who decides they don;t like their own music because it's not selling anymore and start trying to appease the children with terrible songs that attempt to be catchy and mirror whatever the current trends are. We've all been there. I should have seen this coming. The signs were on Lacuna Coil's last album where they made a concerted effort to sound like Korn about 15 years too late for it to be relevant. The catchy but still good song "Closer" that was an obvious attemept at a hit single. The passable 80's cover. How could I not notice? Well, after going all over town a month or so ago to pick up Lacuna's latest ON THE DAY IT CAME OUT, I finally had it. I puit it in my player and was met with a little strength followed by a lot of weakness. And then this song comes on. It's the stupidest fucking thing I've heard since "Hollaback Girl". It's Avril Lavign-ish, it's FUCKING TERRIBLE! A whole new low for the metal genre, Flyleaf aside. Even Flyleaf would probably stop all over this song. And here it is, the official video for the worst metal song I've ever heard:
I listened to the album again and again, desperately hoping that it would grow on me, but I never could make it to the end of "I Like It" again. I can't believe I paid money for that shit. I felt like I'd been raped. To be fair, there is one song on the album that is as good as that song is bad, but I don't care; one good song does not a decent album make. I shall never buy a Lacuna Coil album again. It physically pains me to say those words.
How about you guys? Ever had a band or musician you love do a complete 180 and make you sick over the course of a single album?
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Post by pauless on Jul 4, 2009 21:36:06 GMT 2
I didn't think it was that bad. It's not stuff I would normally listen to - one sight of those pathetic three-quarter length trackie-bottoms and I'm off to the hills - but I can't see why you're suicidal.
Perhaps they owe the record company money, perhaps they're just gettin' old and a bit mellow, either way, I'm surprised you're investing so much faith into representatives of the most cynical, phony, callous industry known to man.
It was only a matter of time before you got bit on the arse.
Modern music is meant to be throwaway, it's designed that way - just ask our host; so why expect death-metal bands, or whatever they're called, to be different ?
This might hurt a bit when you're 15, but for fucks sake T, come on.
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Post by trashcanman on Jul 5, 2009 7:34:49 GMT 2
You think that was death metal? Does one have to have ever been in touch to be considered out of touch? Music means a lot to a lot of people, Paul, me included and Lacuna has always delivered the goods. I could run you a list of many, many bands who created and are creating passionate, epic, personal, powerful, and creative music for decades without ever having succumbed to the most cynical, phony, callous industry known to man. I trust in the bands that deliver what I want, and I cast aside those that do not. You can't be too derisive of a person who is appalled that a band that has been consistently amazing for over a decade suddenly turns into shit in the course of one album. And let us remember that classic music was once modern music and regarded by the old fogies of the time as throwaway as well. It's all one big cycle. Do try and avoid becoming that particular part of it.
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Post by The Curmudgeon on Jul 7, 2009 7:22:12 GMT 2
Modern music is meant to be throwaway, it's designed that way - just ask our host; Tut tut, Paul - when have I EVER said anything like that? Modern music, i.e - the music of today, is as real and relevant as its ever been. Don't age yourself with that bullshit, man. You'll be saying you used to be able to leave your doors wide open next. Of course a whole heap of music is throwaway garbage, but that's always been the case, always will be. But there will always be bands and artists that make music that means something to them and to the people who listen to it - yeah they make money doing it, so what? That's how it works. Doesn't mean its bad. And complaining that a band you once loved is now making shit records is ALWAYS worth going on about, whether you're 15 or 150. Although by then you may have turned into a vampire. I'd heard a couple of Lacuna Coil songs before, Trashy and, yeeesh, that's not.. great at all. I wouldn't say its Avril-ish or anything like that, but its still pretty shit. The first band that instantly came to mind when I started reading this was a one-time favourite band of mine - a UK rock band called Terrorvision. Now, I used to collect every album/single/EP of this band and tried to see them live every time they played in my town. Now, have a quick listen to one of their first hit singles, Alice What's The Matter? Now, they were never the biggest band in the world or anything, but they always did OK. But they were soon to have their biggest ever hit with easily their worst ever single - Tequila. Contrast and compare, won't you? Add to the fact the album was fucking AWFUL, with songs about being hypnotised on stage and having 3 wishes - it really was clear this band had run out of ideas. Disgusted, I gave up on them forever. That is, until a few years ago. They split up for almost 8 years or so, and then when I heard they were reforming for some gigs I was overcome with nostalgia and now I really, really want to see them live.. just one more time. Maybe the same will happen with you, Trash. |
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mackshere
All Messed Up
like a virgin
Posts: 129
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Post by mackshere on Jul 7, 2009 7:27:54 GMT 2
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Post by trashcanman on Jul 7, 2009 10:20:10 GMT 2
Thankfully I was already over Korn when they got REALLY bad. Their transition was pretty gradual. I actually like the RATM covers album. A lot. It does piss me off that Zack can't ever remember the words to "Kick Out the Jams", though. Holy shit that Tequila video was garbage. I barely even made it to the actual music. I'd go see Lacuna Coil again in a second. They are still an awesome band who put out 4 albums and 2 EP's that I absolutely love, and even seeing her in that shitty video has not diminished my love for Cristina Scabbia. But I don't see them ever making another great album after going down that road. As an active fan, I'm done. If Lacuna won't give me my awesome beautiful epic supersexy goth-metal siren fix, there's always Epica.
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Post by pauless on Jul 8, 2009 2:16:29 GMT 2
To be ‘in touch’ suggests being - or at least aspiring to be - fashionable, and that’s something I’ve steadfastly avoided all my life, so if that’s a crime - I’m happily guilty.
The only people who are actually making music for purely aesthetic reasons are either anarcho-hippy/commune outfits like Crass, Dirt etc or people like Bowie and McCartney who’ve made so much cash from the industry, they don’t give a toss if their latest effort sells a shit-load or not.
The vast majority of rock bands are career people whether we like it or not; the attractive ideals you’re subscribing to - placing an almost religious attachment to the physical act of experiencing ‘art’ - will always wilt against the certainty of financial pressure. If you’d asked LC ten years ago if they’d consider a melodic/commercial modification of their sound in exchange for a million extra album sales - what do you think their response would’ve been?
Rock music is a broad church and like any church its aims are capitalistic: as many people under the steeple, spending as much of their hard earned as possible.
I’ve been there; thinking Ian Curtis or Dylan or Morrison were speaking to ME as I sloped around my room with the rain lashing my window some grey autumn afternoon, and I honestly wish you were right; but these days, people with that level of vision or creative integrity -- don’t go into music.
They’re the last thing the corporations need.
I wasn’t trying to be derisive, and as always Trashie, I respect your opinion, but the wide-eyed innocence of your post jarred me a little; I didn’t think anybody still thought like that.
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Post by pauless on Jul 8, 2009 2:21:03 GMT 2
I might’ve known you’d come up with a third option C: groups or artists that are openly market led - we’ll excuse as long as the music’s good.
A fair but limited point, because as long as the lure of the swimming pools, unlimited coke and groupie-groping hangs like the proverbial carrot in agonizingly close proximity - then eventually they will succumb. Who wouldn‘t !?
Trashies original post asked whether we had any groups that we feel have let us down by selling out (every band I’ve ever liked in fact, except one), my point is that they all will sooner or later - at least while the music biz is allowed to continue chugging along as it is - because of either greed or necessity.
In terms of bare-arsed ambition, there is little difference between bands like Lacuna Coil or Terrorvision (that ‘Tequila’ one was terrible, no debate needed) and the latest Cowell prodigy. All are crammed into an overcrowded area and are being forced to scuttle around trying to scratch a buck from an invariably decreasing float; but all are desperate for fame and the unlimited rewards that come with it.
Such circumstances do not make for anything more lasting than a momentary filling of boots.
Modern rock has become the Supermarket Sweep of art-forms.
D’you think Iggy Pop enjoys doing those mobile phone commercials? Here’s someone I’ve respected in the past; now at 60, stripped to the waist, doing some kind of half-baked impression of himself from 30 years ago, in a frankly monstrous attempt to shift product. If he’s prepared to lower himself so far down for a few shekels, shouldn’t we expect the same of Lacuna Coil ?
Music can still spring a surprise or two I’ll grant you - only last week I was quietly stunned by a great performance by someone called Florence and the Machine on Jonathon Ross of all places - but would her performance have been as hungry and uninhibited as it was - if she’d just bought Cuba?
Next time a rock group comes on TV, put the subtitles on and try and predict what the next line of lyrics will be - I guarantee your success rate will be depressingly high. That’s not what music’s about. Nor is it about the thousands of idiots at Glastonbury; shoes covered in piss and mud, shelling out hundreds of pounds to stand in a field and listen to crude representations of songs that they’ve got much better versions of on cd; because they’re fed (by the music industry) that that’s a good time - in no less a cynical way than Cowell pushes Eggnog Quigg.
Trashie’s right, it is a cycle; but one that will never break while we’re all buying so heavily into the mother of all conglomerates, while having sheepishly convinced ourselves that we’re experiencing the true spirit of rock ’n’ roll.
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mackshere
All Messed Up
like a virgin
Posts: 129
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Post by mackshere on Jul 8, 2009 3:00:58 GMT 2
Here is another band that totally sold out--SUGAR RAY Their first album was fairly heavy. Songs like this www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_bMySFaxBAThey had one horribly catchy pop hit off the album called FLY. So of course they totally changed their sound from there on out, trying to duplicate what attracted the masses. Went to crap like this www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPcX-5Tmqt8Damn shame! They were never a mega-talent or anything, but I really liked their heavy garage band sound. But they chose the path to fame & fortune then disappeared all together. <edit> just learned they have a new CD coming out next month  |
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Post by trashcanman on Jul 8, 2009 7:02:03 GMT 2
A friend of mine likes to tell the story of how he almost kicked Mark McGrath's ass because he was a dick to a female fan. Sadly they were separated so he didn't get the "coolest guy I've ever met" award.
Excellent points, Pauless, but you mistake me for somebody else. I don't buy into music as a corporate entity and I seldom support bands who do. And it's never a necessity to sell out. Not in a million years. I'm not going to write another lecture here about how great Fugazi is, so just search Wikipedia if you want to know a prominent band who proves that all the corporate bullshit is completely unnecessary. Being in touch simply means you have some clue about what's going on. For example, being able to identify a pervasive and popular form of music that has been around nearly 30 years. If you are a music fan, that should be a given. And what you said about most rock bands is false. MOST rock bands are local groups whose only aspiration is getting free beer for the pleasure of playing their tunes to however many people show up. Most of them will break up having never been known to you or I. They do it because they love it. End of story. A few of those groups make it big and so long as they retain that creative fire, I will gladly be their fan. But I can smell a sell-out from a mile away and the day it happens, I move on. When the music isn't good, there is no reason to stick around. That's my religion. There is no allegiance to any band who isn't meeting my standards. Seriously, look around. There is as much or more creativity in music as there has ever been. The difference is now you have to get off your ass and look for it which makes it an even more precious commodity and makes the abandonment of one's fans a greater sin if you're one of those bands. You're list of musical names speaks of one who only accepts what's handed to them by pop culture. Radio is a dirty word in my house. If you judge modern music by what's on the airwaves, it's no wonder you assume there's nothing of value out there.
Oh, and Lacuna was extremely melodic and accessible to begin with. If they had been put on radio, they would have sold big. But the corporate gods put their money into Evanescence instead. But that "I Like It" song is just the single biggest embarrassment I ever heard. It actually has less melody then anything they've ever done. It sounds like some shitty Gwen Stefani cast-off. I'm not suicidal or even sad in the real sense of the word, I'm just royally pissed that they made such a massive turnaround so fast and I wound up buying an album that is crap when I could have bought one that was good with that money. And that shitty song and watered-down album will not make them stars because financial success is entirely dependent on the corporate gods once you go that route. Unless they throw mad money into payola to get them on the air, which they seldom ever do for metal bands that haven't achieved success on their own, they will have only lost their fans and not gained a damn thing. From there it's a downward spiral. Korn and Slipknot had millions of albums sold before radio would touch them and they were American and hip. Some Italian metal band with two singers and a unique style that can't really be described in buzz words isn't going to have shit handed to them by the mainstream. They should have realized that and settled for the modest success they already had.
Fuck, I went and wrote a book. I'll shut up now.
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mackshere
All Messed Up
like a virgin
Posts: 129
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Post by mackshere on Jul 8, 2009 8:06:01 GMT 2
There was once a kickass local band that would constantly put out hard-rockin jams here in town. I seen them at least 5 times, and always expected them to make it big. Eventually they did, selling the fuck out with the help of Fred Durst and becoming one of the shittiest bands in existence. Of course I'm talking about Puddle of Mudd. Here's a somber tune, recorded about a decade before it found the national airwaves. It was changed a bit, but still good. www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHvusHdPW0gThen this!?!?!? Fuck Fuck Fuck. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe0Za0-4srYI don't like it, like it. |
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Post by pauless on Jul 9, 2009 4:34:14 GMT 2
A decent counter Trashie as I expected - but:
Are you now trying to tell me that if your favourite band released their completely brilliant masterpiece, you wouldn't buy it if they'd signed to Warners or Universal? I think not, but 'not buying into music as a corporate entity' (sic) doesn't wash, because that's exactly what you are doing.
The people who own music - and we all know who they are - are concerned with playing compartmentalist monetary gods. Put each group in its own little niche with its own niche audience, pat them on the head and cancel their contract if they haven't sold enough discs. Same as any job; you don't do it right - ie. you don't make your employers as much money as they think you should - you get fucked. Artists (ie. music good or bad) shouldn't be under the same pressure as a guy that sells underwear.
This is mirrored in life generally: we all know of a small shop or diner which gives great service for years, sells to a bigger company for whatever reason - usually greed but not always - and the standard plummets. The bigger company comes in and immediately starts shaving off costs to lower overheads and increase profits. Basic market forces right? Music's just the same; it's susceptible to those same forces, and every time you buy a disc or a concert ticket you’re feeding the beast. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, and this is why I can't get my head round why you’re so shocked and disappointed when nature inevitably takes its course.
Of course most rock bands are playing their bedrooms or dads garages, I'll give you that - but I'll bet the vast majority of them aren't doing it for love; they want the money and the fame. They're all desperately wishing they were in a position to sell out.
I'm 100% in agreement about the radio - I won't tolerate it. I even argue with my daughter when we're out in the car because I won't have the fucker on. I've had to bribe her before now to make it stop.
Interesting you think rock music's only been going for 30 years (!). What Elvis, the Stones and Mott the Hoople were playing for all those years is anyone’s guess…..and I deliberately chose those three examples because they're the three greatest lyricists that have ever lived, but that's personal taste and I don’t want to go there.
We can all get lulled: you mentioned lusciously-limbed Gwen S; I thought 'Early Winter' was one of the best pop singles I'd heard in about 5 years and like an imbecile went and bought the 'Sweet Escape' album on the strength of it. It was depressingly inevitable that the rest of the album would be rotten to the core, and I experienced an awful self-aware kind of grimness as the evidence unfolded from my speakers. I deserved to be £10 down..
There will come a day when you're posting something similar about Fugazi as you now are about Lacuna Coil, that is how it is and ever shall be. They may have meat-grinder.. sorry, record company support now but you only need a new chief-exec to come in: "why are we paying these guys again….?" and it's goodnight Vienna.
[Edit] I've checked out a few LC vids and they're a cool turn. That girl singer has definitely got something - apart from the obvious. I checked 'Heavens a Lie', 'Our Truth' and 'Swamped' - all very good, and one called 'Closer' which is excellent. There was another called 'Spellbound' which was a bit blandola, but you can't have everything.
Perhaps it's me, but I can't see a huge difference between any of these and the one you were so distraught about that lifetime ago; and such are the vagaries of rock 'n' roll, Lacuna Coil are now on the radar of someone who previously hadn't given them a second glance.
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Post by trashcanman on Jul 9, 2009 19:15:42 GMT 2
I was referring to death metal as the genre that has been around 30 years. The irony would choke me to death if I referred to somebody else as out of touch and then said rock music has only been around that long. Believe me, Fugazi is in no danger of selling out. I'm not being naive (this time), it's simply how those guys operate. You remember when you asked if LC would have sold out right at the start if somebody had offered them millions? Fugazi has reportedly been offered a million dollars in cash advance just to sign a contract. They said "not a chance". Material wealth just doesn't interest them; the exist for their fans and as an example to other bands. They almost never grant interviews with the mainstream media unless a number of draconian conditions are met and they have never charged more then $10 for a concert ticket in 20 years. And at this point, I believe they are retired (they say "hiatus", but it's been a great while and they aren't getting younger) so it'd be about impossible for them to sell out at this point. But metal has become mainstream and it's now easy to sell your soul where bands like Slayer and Testament didn't have that option in their day. Still, no excuse to go from awesome to Avril in one album.
You referred to "Spellbound" as bland while you enjoyed the other songs you heard. That song is from the new album so even a casual listener noticed the discrepancy in quality. I honestly don't care what label a band is signed to so long as the music is great. I'm a KISS fan, for crying out loud. The biggest sell-outs possible. But I like their big dumb music, so I listen to it. They'll not get another penny of my money because Simmons routinely disrespects his fans, but I still enjoy the old stuff. It's when the music suffers that I cash out. I realize that not every artist has to be Ian MacKaye and subscribe to my personal ethos to make good music, but when the art suffers as a result of the band listening to people who have no business telling musicians what to do then they can't expect me to stick around when there is so much more out there. LC had a great run, but I'm not chancing buying another bland album and getting pissed off about it. I believe they were the very last band whose albums I bought on release day without listening to a single track in advance. Now there's just nothing for me to look forward to in the genre anymore. That's probably why I got so worked up. Man, that song is awful. You da man, Paul.
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Post by pauless on Jul 16, 2009 1:38:21 GMT 2
Providing they don't make an embarassing come-back with a lone original member and some session musoes, you're lucky with Fugazi then Trash - you'll have them forever.
The worst thing about this is when someone asks you who your favourite bands are, you give them a list and they say: "Oh yes, I like such and such by them.." and it's ALWAYS something from the shitty period you don't like. Always some poxy hit single that doesn't represent the group you love at all.
It's a bit crass to say things like: "I only like their early stuff" - you can see 'condescending snob' written all your inquisitors faces - so as a general rule I keep shtum, unless totalitarian stupidity compels me to respond.
You got a tricky one with LC, their next album could be a startling return to form; a revving up to full power again, but what to do in the meantime....
I quite like Kiss myself - your description is about right, but the 'Kiss make-up: off or on?..' was like a little mini-soap for a while...
Is THIS rock 'n' roll ?
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Post by trashcanman on Jul 16, 2009 3:42:41 GMT 2
Hell yes, it is. I try to balance my "favorite" lists with obscure abrasive artsy shit and super-popular stuff that abrasive artsy types hate like Led Zeppelin. It's true to my tastes and it confuses the hell out of people. If LC makes great music again, I will buy it. But it's rare for a band to go that far to try and sell out and then return to their artistic glory days later. I love it when people use the "early stuff" line about artists who were only around for a few years. Yeah, I only like early Hendrix, man. You know, back when he was playing backup in Little Richard's band before he got all sold out and started recording his own songs.
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