Quick rant on immigration

[mackshere]

Que pasa punto?!?!? El senorita Maria aqua el broke-o. Grabbo de mule Sal, les go to Estados Unidos for Free Healthcare! Undelay! Undelay! Arriba! Arriba! Yeefay!

Yeah, immigration is a major problem that seems to be getting ignored here. My wife works at a hotel, she tells me 90% of the housekeeping staff does not speak or understand 5 words of English. They must have a translator on shift to communicate. And they have lived here for several years?

I find that pretty fucking annoying. Plus everytime I use the ATM I have to hit the English button? WTF?!? We speak American here--aka a shitty rendition of English.

I'm all for any foreigner coming to our country and trying to grasp the American dream. This includes getting a job, supporting a family, learning our language, watching shitty big budget movies, whatever. Embracing our culture and becoming part of the community you live in. That doesn't mean forgetting your roots. Millions have come over and flourished--Chinese, Japanese, Germans, Jews, Africans. For the most part, they all seem to be contributing in some way to their neighborhood, and thus to America as a whole.

Not the case with the Latin American crowd flooding across the border. Hospitals must provide care for anyone that walks in. Any babies born here are given immediate citizenship. I've heard it's better to be unemployed in the U.S. than to have an average job in several places down South. So they illegals suck up welfare while roofing houses and geting free healthcare while our hospitals go broke. Our unemployment keeps rising and taxpayers keep floating the bill. Exploitation at its worst.

Our leaders only seem interested in getting & staying in office, so they need to gain the Mexi-votes by sounding compassionate to their plights. But in the long run this is destroying our country, by 2020 we will be 50% Spanish speaking here. That is of course hyperbole but you get my point. We need to fucking do something now. ok I'm done.... any thoughts?

[trashcanman]

Up next on FOX News: why everything in the world is somebody else's fault; especially if they're different from you. Well, where I live used to BE Mexico until we stole it from them at gunpoint so I can't share your sentiments. About 50% of the population in Cali is Spanish-speaking already. Most of them are also integrated, speak English as well, and are as hard-working or more so then we who were born into relative privilege. The jobs they take are almost entirely the jobs that we are too stuck-up to do ourselves. Ask your wife why she didn't take a housekeeping job herself. If no white applicant show up, should they just let the hotel be a hovel rather then give a job to immigrants? Maybe she recommend the job to her friends? Didn't think so. In farm territory, there are surprisingly few middle class white folk who will spend 12-16 hours a day in a field hand-picking tomatoes or whatever in 100+ degree weather so immigrants -legal and illegal- are a vital part of our economy. Naturally, there are lazy assholes as well, but I blame the system for catering to them. Hospital care is a natch because what fucking right do we have to stand there and watch another human being suffer and/or die when the means to help them are right there based on their wealth or nationality? If you were born down there, wouldn't you do anything you could for a sick family member regardless of what Rush Limbaugh thinks of you? Damn straight. However, the welfare system is broken and too easy to exploit. Can we really blame them more then anyone else for taking advantage of free shit when the government makes it so easy? And take a visit to your local trailer park if you think it's all foreigners taking advantage.

I don't care what the guy on talk radio said, immigration is not a major problem in this country. "Blame the immigrants" has been a go-to recruiting phrase for nationalist bigots since this country began. Don't join their ranks. The same things were likely said about your ancestors. It often takes a generation or two to fully integrate into an unfamiliar culture. And let's not forget we took this land by waging all-out genocide on the original occupants. What right do we have to turn anyone else away when we've got that much blood on our hands?

And while it is quite stupid to not learn the native language of the country you emigrate to, it's pretty amusing to think of how pissed off white people get when they hear words they don't understand. If you think dealing with one person a week or whatever who doesn't speak English is so hard, imagine what it's like to not be able to communicate with most people. They come from Mexico. They don't own computers or know how to use a library or sign up for classes to learn English, they just know that their government is letting their family starve in Mexico and there's work in America. And who the fuck are we to tell them they don't deserve to live based on which side of an invisible border they were born on?

If the worst part of your day is having to push a button, picture being born into poverty and not even knowing what an ATM is and fleeing the drug-violence in your region that is indirectly caused by Americans' appetite for drugs and being met with unconditional hatred from people who have never even met you before you can so much as try get on your feet. I just don't see the morality in sentencing somebody to death and misery based on where they were born. If they come up here and don't pull their weight and get in trouble, send 'em back. But we've got about a million bigger problems in this country before we turn an eye to persecuting the huddled masses yearning to be free and tell them they haven't murdered enough people to be able to claim this as their homeland.

Obama needs to lean on the corrupt Mexican government to clean up and start doing something for their people. That is the only possible way to stop illegal immigration. Mexico is not a poor country. It's just the citizens that are poor because the government hoards all of the money and violent criminals run then economy. We are all over here listening to Bill O'Reilley and his type ranting and raving about people they've never even met and nodding in agreement because of a few instanced we've observed (or more likely heard about second or third hand) brown people doing things we don't like. Where's the solution in this whining? What is going to get accomplished with that aside from the spread of more racism? It's just tail-chasing. These immigrants are people who just want to fucking live. If somebody gets offended because they can't eavesdrop on their conversation n a different language, wah. We are very lucky to be here. But it does not give us the right to decide who doesn't deserve the same opportunities we were born with.

There was some shitsplat town in Texas that actually outlawed non-English languages. So does that mean they'd lock you up for saying your parents live in San Antonio? Do you have to say "Saint Anthony" instead now? What about it you want to order something at Taco Bell? As long as they are words they personally know, funny how foreign words don't bother people. But a full sentence? Oh my god, I can't understand somebody else's business, waaaah! Who cares. Outlawing words is not freedom of speech, regardless of the word's country of origin. Seems like less and less people these days have a clue what it even means to be American. Apparently it just means white now.

Oh, and here's a fun fact: illegal immigrants work with fake social security numbers. That means the taxes are paid to SS, but never withdrawn. That cash is likely the only reason we still have a SS system at all. Old people who refuse to die and stay on drugs and life support for years on end are draining our country more then any number of illegals. Bet you didn't hear that on the news. It's their job to keep misdirecting your attention so you stay pissed off at people different from you and don't realize that rich white people are the cause of most of your real ills. These people are just people and they haven't had the same education, culture, and upbringing you have. That's no reason to kick them when they're down or pretend they're some kind of supervillains here to ruin our country. they aren't a major problem and they aren't going anywhere and the only thing we need to do now is use our heads and start focusing on the real issues at hand. There's only so any times you can say "some of my best friends are [insert race here]" after making racist statements before people start to catch on. What does "yeefay" mean?

[The Curmudgeon]

Hmmmmmmmm.

Hmmmmmm.

Hmm.

Mackshere, I've got to side with Trashy on this one. I get your point, but as soon as anyone starts the whole "they come here and get free benefits first and they get in schools first and they're allowed to rape our wives and eat our children" rants I immediately think to our situation in the UK, where the BNP (racist political party) spread their poison and brainwashing techniques to confused, gullible people - hardworking people who feel their country is getting over-run by immigrants who take all the benefits.

One thing I've never understood about the hatred towards immigrants; it always comes down to two basic arguements;

1. They come here, don't work and take all the benefits.
or
2. They take all the jobs.

So which one is it?! If you don't want them working, and yet you don't want them taking money from the government - what are they supposed to do? And, of course, the answer is "fuck off back home" and then that opens up all kinds of racist attitudes.

It's a difficult situation to be in. One, you don't want to sound racist (er, even if you were being in your opening thread), but you rightly stress about your tax money going to those who don't deserve it.

In the UK, there is a lifestyle that the government is desperately (and unsuccessfully) trying to wipe out, and that is the unemployment lifestyle. Kids leave jobs and never work, yet they get free health, free dentist, rent paid.. all that - for life. To me, THAT is 100 times more frustrating than a foreign family moving to this country and trying to make a living here. In America it's Mexicans who, as Trashy says, do the jobs we wouldn't do, and in the UK it's the Polish immigrants you often see cleaning stairs and toilets and working every hour God sends. And good fucking luck to them, too.

[trashcanman]

I actually though about this at work and I'm thinking you may be pulling our leg here, Mackshere. This doesn't seem like you. You seem to have gotten you information on this from two places, Speedy Gonzalez cartoons and Conservative Republican talk shows. Please tell me you were fucking around or having a bad day. And let me tell you a Mexican trade secret that few white people know. Many Mexicans pretend they can't speak English but actually can. They just don't don't want some people to know because white folks have a tendency to order them around and pretending they don't understand is a way of ignoring them. It's also a bit of a game because people will say things around them that they wouldn't say if they knew they understood them. I've had Mexicans go so far as to pretend they don't speak SPANISH when I address them in it after they didn't respond when I hailed them in English. A Mexican co-worker of mine told me that's a game some of them like to play also just to piss white people off. It is kind of funny when you think about it.

[mackshere]

Good call on the Speedy Gonzalez trashy. Thats where the yeefay word came from. I was fucking around here a bit, but also I was a bit serious. No I do not listen to talk radio, but I read a book awhile back from one of those guys. Again, good call. I am camping now, but when I get home I will find that book and rattle off some alarming stats. But my little rant came from hearing stories from my wife about work.
Those women are not playing a I dont undertand the white man game. Their boss has difficulty expressing himself to the staff, he must talk to them through the translator to get his orders across. Possibly nobody wanted the housekeepping jobs back when jobs were plentiful. Now several people would quickly take it I am sure.
The Mexi govt wants all the poor uneducated (and sometimes violent troublemaking) people to leave the country and become a U.S. problem. And we do cater to them I think with our system.
Where you live was once populated by Native Americans, long before the Spanish or English or whoever laid claim. It is dangerous to have seperate people with differnt ideals and totally different agendas when it comes to patriotism. Claiming its not a problem is pretty naive I think. It is progressing to become a larger problem that cant be ignored.
Anyway, I will be better prepared to continue this debate when I am not using my cell phone to type. Be back later...

[mackshere]

It is easy to label any opposition to immigration as racism. I am NOT opposed to it, I am opposed to anyone coming to our country and not pledging allegiance to it plus exploiting it. That is happening frequently now, regardless if you want to acknowledge it. Saying we have a moral responsibility to cater to less priviledged people is interesting and perhaps noble. But hell, there are millions of homeless people, sick people, underpriviledged people in the world. So what, we open the doors for everyone because we all have it so good? That is pretty unrealistic, not to mention detrimental to our economic stability. Obama has high hopes and goals that might have good intentions, but also might drag us down. I think we need a certain amount of selfishness, a live and let die attitude. That sounds cruel, I know.

Anyway, here is a thought--have you watched the movie ZEITGEIST? Everyone should check it out. It raises the possibility of all of North America becoming one country with one government and one monetary system. That might be far-fetched, but it is damn interesting. Just a step in the New World Order?

[trashcanman]

When you say it is dangerous to have separate people you are essentially espousing fascism. Shall we just take the poor and other undesirables and give 'em the ol' German public shower? The final solution is the only solution to the "problem" that concerns you. That or acceptance of foreign cultures. Whichever floats your boat. And get those stats AND the source because statistics can be deliberately misinterpreted to mean damn near anything you want them to based on the context you introduce them in. it's all about manipulation and misdirection. Nationalism is the danger we face, not immigration. The idea that we are entitled to anything based solely on the geographic region of our birth has no possible moral or logical justification. Bring on a North American Union. I'll still be me, my town will still be my town, and this whining about immigration can finally stop. The only major difference will be less borders, nationalism, and the bigotry that comes with them. Our economy is shit because the government spends all of the tax money (which is horrendously excessive to begin with; in fact, income tax is technically illegal) they steal from us extremely frivolously. Basically, every department of the government has a larger budget then what they need. They have to reach to spend the entire budget, but they do it anyways because it allows them to ask for more next time. Hell, they even embezzle the excess. This goes on and on in every little department from federal to county level until our fucking economy collapses because we are overtaxed and have no money to spend and the government is determined to take yet more due to the widespread fallacy that they don't already have enough. This is why Mexico is the way it is; unchecked government corruption. This is why welfare will stay as it is and they will keep inviting people to partake of it at our expense. Because every department wants a bigger share of the tax dollar pie and they can't get it if they are giving out less then what they already have. So they give out more instead. One can hardly blame the people who are just taking what is offered.

[mackshere]

Espousing fascism? By saying its dangerous to have people with seperate ideas in regards to love for the country they reside in? Hardly. But you are right when it comes to stats, they can be manipulated and deciphered to fit in with preexisting ideas. Me throwing some out will probably not change your mind, so itd be kinda pointless. Still I will look into it. The system is screwed up, and I cant really blame some for taking advantage.

[trashcanman]

Most every person I know has separate ideas from other people regarding most things, patriotism included. That's what individuality is. Government-enforced conformity is another term for fascism. I know you aren't a hard-line conformist, Mack, so why hassle folks for not fitting in? Contrary to popular belief, there is no "love it or leave it" clause in The Constitution, either. They can't throw you in jail for not pledging allegiance. And in response to you asking if we should open our doors to the less privileged, I'll let the Statue of Liberty handle that one.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

That's America's original mission statement and it's what made us the country we are. Diversity and the flexibility that comes with it, not single-mindedness and uniformity, made us great. And if that bit of poetry doesn't do anything for you, how about this:

"Yes I know my enemies. They are the teachers who taught me to fight me, compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance, hypocrisy, brutality, the elite. All of which are American dreams."

Pretty much sums up the attitude of a defiant immigrant, don't you think?

Oh, and the point of this discussion shouldn't be to change anyone's mind necessarily, brotherman. It's just an exchange of ideas that should benefit everyone involved. These kinds of exchanges are priceless in the best possible sense.

[mackshere]

I hear ya t, just bustin your balls. Its fun to see you get worked up. You surprisingly held your composure for once, no silly ranting and raving like were accustomed to hearing from you. Plus you didnt even quote Toby Keith this time. Impressive.
You know I love RATM. People hear Z sing "Muthafuck Uncle Sam" and quickly label him as a traitor, unpatriotic, extremist terrorist. Whatever, quite the opposite. It is possible to hate corruption, distrust our govt, be skeptical of leaders, speak the truth and love America. Many dont see that.
I am leery of immigrants that reject the ideals and true spirit of America. You can call that nonconformity if you want. I call it dangerous.

[trashcanman]

Goddamn it, I called that shit in my second post too, so no gloating. I don't believe you've ever seen me really worked up. That silly ranting and raving is me calm. Me angry is not a pretty sight, let me tell you.

[edit] Yeah, I just took a quick break to eat lunch and in that time my father-in-law asked me if the plant I work at gives free cheese to "the niggers". And he wasn't kidding. If I can handle that shit in person every day, a standard immigration rant on the internet isn't going to phase me too much. Just wanted to share.

[Benjamin Haines]

As a college student going into my third year in a few weeks, every year I have to fill out and submit the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA), a government form that's necessary to determine my eligibility for scholarships, Stafford loans, need-based grants and the like. It's remarkably tedious and long-winded, taking hours at a time to fill out in one sitting and requiring information of the most extraneous variety. I basically have to provide all of the details of my parents' annual tax reports in addition to everything pertaining to me personally. It's a textbook example of orthodox formality on the government's part resulting in something that's far more complicated and time-consuming than it needs to be. If there was a way to obtain a Pell grant or a Stafford loan, or hell, just to have the money it takes to pay for college up front without having to deal with the FAFSA, you bet your ass I'd jump on it.

But as ridiculously complex as the FAFSA is, I imagine it doesn't even come close in that regard to the government's official naturalization process for immigrants who attempt to become United States citizens the legal way. For anybody living in the utter shithole that is Latin America, I don't blame them one bit for opting to hop a fence and seek out a better life for themselves and their families in the land of opportunity into which they weren't so fortunate to be born. I know I'd sure as hell do the same thing in their shoes.

[The Curmudgeon]

Long time no see, Benj, and you hit the nail on the head with an arguement I hadn't even thought about;

Simply put - "wouldn't YOU?"

[trashcanman]

Lifetime of legalized misery and suffering, 20 years of going through an impossibly complex demanding and expensive legal emigration process and still have rednecks treat you like shit based on your race, or break one little rule with no basis in logic and hop a fence to the land of opportunity? Easy choice.

[mackshere]

Yes, I don't blame anyone wanting to reside in our great country. But totally rejecting all of our ideals, language, residents, culture, etc is not a good thing for long term stability.