And now for a controversal issue.

[trashcanman]

Pick you poison: religion or atheism. The extremes of both ways of thinking (or not thinking) are turning America into such a state that I'm afraid to turn on the news anymore. Every attention-hungry atheist suing the government over publicly displayed christmas trees and "ten commandments" postings is wasting our time and so are the Bill O'Reilleys and Pat Robertsons with their constant threats of hellfire and bigoted commentary. Both groups beg for money and media coverage incessantly, both groups are full of knuckle-dragging, hard-headed simpletons that think they have all of life's answers in pocket because they've read (or heard paraphrased) the opinions and thoughts of much wiser men. As my father used to tell me, "The truth is usually somewhere in the middle". I recently took hard-line atheism to task on Amazon.com after the site recommended a book with the ridiculous title of "God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" to me. I've got enough material to write several books on the topic, but I don't have the time and I personally think that selling other people your opinions on things like religion and philosophy makes you no better than a televangelist -this author has been making the liberal news rounds to pimp his work- so I thought I'd give the kind of people who'd buy these self-help books for the faithless a taste of that "free thinking" they like to talk about so much, free of charge. They don't seem to understand that true free thought requires objectivity and perspective, not a predetermined opposition to an idea and divisive rhetoric. It seems I kicked up quite a shitstorm and the discussion so far has been a worthwhile one I think, with a minimun of the usual crap you get in the same ol' internet flame wars. Whichever side of the fence you're on, I think there are some worthwhile ideas presented in this discussion and you're free to take a look and/or weigh in if this topic interests you. Note: you'll have to cut and paste the following address since it seems to be too long for a full link Here's a tip, start highlighting at the bottom Enjoy.

www.amazon.com/gp/discussionboard/cd/discussion.html/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg1/102-4698721-3576155?ie=UTF8&cdForum=Fx15VRM054O3TJO&cdPage=1&asin=0446579807&cdThread=Tx26PXN0FOGQA9M

[The Curmudgeon]

I wouldn't say I'm religious, but then I wouldn't say I'm an aetheist either. It's weird, I don't really know what I believe in, other than the basic Christian beliefs that we all (mostly) grow up on. I sometimes find myself thinking about those beliefs - that when we die we go to Heaven or if we're bad we go to Hell - and its only when you really think about it you realise how deeply stupid it all is. But then, when I DO think that, there's a little niggling thought in the back of my head that always gets shocked (and a little scared), that somehow I've "uncovered" this great lie. Fuck, I don't know - I can't even explain what I mean.

They always say there's two topics you should never have an open discussion about - religion and politics - because you're NEVER gonna change someone's mind on either. Faith is something that you can never win an arguement about. Christian, Pagan, Muslim - whatever - people with fundamental beliefs will ALWAYS believe they're in the right. You think the perpetrators of 9/11 ever thought they weren't acting in God's best light?

That is one heavy debate you've got going on there, Trashy. I just get the idea that, with all relgious debate, it's probably never going to really get anywhere.

Why is it that deeply religious people always come off as sinister fascists or shiny-eyed lunatics?

[trashcanman]

You sound like what they call "agnostic", Curmudgeon, but personally, I find when you label yourself a member of any denomination or belief you immediately associate yourself with all the baggage associated with that label. Kind of like voluntarily stereotyping yourself in other people's eyes. I wouldn't bother trying to change people's minds, it just does't work that way. What I'd like to do is cut through all of the bullshit dogma, circular arguments, and redundant rhetoric that is associated with the atheist vs. christian debate. I've known so many atheists in my life and gotten along with each of them famously. In fact, some of the most influentual people of my life have been atheists. I'm not knocking the belief -or lack thereof- itself so much as the need to validate it by belittling religion with false interpretations of the Bible or complete misunderstandings of the teachings within it. Not to mention the actions of fucking psychopaths acting in God's (or Allah's) name when they clearly have not even a basic grasp of the religion they claim allegiance to so fervently. I see both sides of the argument and I've had my goes with the fundamentalists; frankly, the atheists are a much better debate. In fact, many of them know more about the contents of the Bible than most christians, their point of view is just so slanted that they don't understand what they are reading, being too busy looking for the worst in it. I just wish that people could accept each other whether they agree or not, you know? It's this constant bickering about things that can never be proven or disproven that grates on my nerves.
On a more positive note:

"I was dreaming in my dreaming
of an aspect bright and fair
and my sleeping it was broken
but my dream it lingered near
in the form of shining valleys
where the pure air recognized
and my senses newly opened
I awakened to the cry
that the people have the power
to redeem the work of fools
upon the meek the graces shower
it's decreed the people rule
The people have the power

Vengeful aspects became suspect
and bending low as if to hear
and the armies ceased advancing
because the people had their ear
and the shepherds and the soldiers
lay beneath the stars
exchanging visions
and laying arms
to waste in the dust
in the form of shining valleys
where the pure air recognized
and my senses newly opened
I awakened to the cry

Where there were deserts
I saw fountains
like cream the waters rise
and we strolled there together
with none to laugh or criticize
and the leopard
and the lamb
lay together truly bound
I was hoping in my hoping
to recall what I had found
I was dreaming in my dreaming
god knows a purer view
as I surrender to my sleeping
I commit my dream to you

The power to dream to rule
to wrestle the world from fools
it's decreed the people rule

I believe everything we dream
can come to pass through our union
we can turn the world around
we can turn the earth's revolution
we have the power
People have the power ..."

-Patti Smith