Wardrobe malfunction (not the good kind)

[trashcanman]

So this is one of those rare Fortress sports threads. Not about the sport itself, but as usual some kind of controversy. My current sport of choice is MMA and it's big stage organization the UFC. This fellow here is the UFC's top ambassador and reigning poster boy, George St Pierre (GSP) at his last fight.



Depending on your knowledge of Asian history, you may note the totally badass Japanese "rising sun" flag design on GSP's gi. Well, there is a reason Japan doesn't use that flag anymore and that reason is that it represents the nation's ambition to expand beyond it's borders, which led to some strained relations with it's neighbors. And by "strained" I mean invasions, slavery, civilian exterminations, and the kidnapping of women into lives of forced prostitution for Japanese soldiers to name a few. After WWII, Japan adopted the new boring red dot flag design as a gesture of good faith that their atrocity days are over. But you know us westerners; we just love a killer design. Korean fans and fighters....not so much in this case.

www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/3/25/4144692/ufc-korean-zombie--gsp-rising-sun-gi-is-as-bad-as-wearing-a-nazi/in/3909967

As bad as a swastika? Slightly hyperboliscious maybe, but the comparison is a valid one considering Japan's overzealous cruelty during WWII. The company who designed the gi apologized, as did GSP, no harm, no foul...but wait, every time somebody draws attention to these things, Japan takes offense. Here we go.

www.mmamania.com/2013/4/2/4175642/ryo-chonan-slams-idiots-georges-st-pierre-hayabusa-rising-sun-gi-mma

Ad-hominem city up in that bitch. Rather than issue a measured and polite rebuttal to perpetuate the tone established by the plaintiff, Chonan decided name-calling was the correct route to save his country's honor.

"I don’t care about the comfort women, go make more statues in Korea. Japan is too busy.”

Just.....wow.

"Japan actually helped Korea and made it a developed country."

By occupying them for some 40 years and practically outlawing their own culture in the meantime. I'm sure they are very thankful. Just ask them.

So yeah, this has now gone on long enough to warrant a discussion in my opinion. So the question is this: should symbols of past atrocities be banned for all time? Is 70 years or so still "too sooooon!"? Do you suppose a hundred years from now people won't cringe when they see a swastika or a rising sun design or something else associated with the outer limits of human cruelty or is this always going to be the way; seeing a simple symbol or design and getting upset by it?

[Ben]

I think it's more than a tad bit ridiculous, and I have a hunch you agree with me even though you tried to keep your initial post objective to facillitate discussion (or at least that's how I read it). The outcry over these things, while understandable to a point, has gotten to be too much. I used to be an avid model builder (lol NERD), and some American brands won't even include Swastika decals in their model kits for fear of offending someone. It's a fucking decal! Even foreign brands usually leave the Swastikas off the box (so you don't see it and start crying, or some shit) even though they include the decals inside.

Which brings up my next point: the Rising Sun is not the equivalent of the Swastika. The Swastika was directly representative of the Nazis and Hitler's regime, but the Rising Sun was in use for 50 years before Japan invaded China and WWII broke out. Even better, Japan still fucking uses a variant of the Rising Sun! Check it out:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rising_Sun_Flag

But plenty of people still get offended by it, apparently. See more:

www.columbiatribune.com/news/education/soccer-team-s-use-of-rising-sun-flag-causes-stir/article_4f355021-ce12-528a-94ba-9167a642da4c.html

I think the problem is that few people actually know what these things stood for, or how they were used, or where they originated, so when someone gets offended by them the immediate reaction is to appease the people who are offended rather than take the time to point out how they're getting offended for no good reason. I have more to say about this, but I have to head off to class. Coincidentally, it's about Imperial Japan.

Lord, I hope they don't show us any Rising Sun flags! It might offend the Asian students! Better scrap the lecture about atrocities, too, because it's too offensive!

[trashcanman]

That second link may be the wrong link, Ben, since I didn't see the relevance to the discussion. If my post initial was objective, it was because I'm not really resolved either way. I can see why people would get upset by seeing people displaying the flag that was being flown while your grandmother was snatched from your home and gang-raped nightly by soldiers or whatever, but you are right that the rising sun symbolized Japan for a long time prior to the occupation of Korea, China, and other Asian countries as opposed to other offensive symbols like swastikas and confederate flags that were used exclusively to symbolize regimes whose defining traits were genocide and slavery. So I can see that using the rising sun is different, but given the extreme nature of Asian politics, it's probably best to avoid it. Also, I didn't know that the SDF had re-adopted it. That's very interesting. Really, though, atrocities have been committed under about every flag there is including the stars and stripes, but the difference seems to be that the winners get to write the history books and focus on the crimes of the losers. It always bugs the shit out of me when they portray nazis but they use a substitute for the swastika. So nazis themselves aren't offensive, but the swastika is? What is that shit? But yeah, I'm rambling now.

Personally, I'm never offended by a mere symbol in itself, but it definitely affects my opinion of someone somewhat when I see them with a swastika tattoo or a confederate flag on their truck because it implies that they relate to the things those images symbolize so I can see why Jung Chan-Sung would feel compelled to inform GSP of his personal feelings about the rising sun. It's an interesting topic to be sure. Another thing I'd like to point out is that while the confederate flag itself is still considered largely offensive and racist that terrible pop country group, Lady Antebellum, is all lover the place. "Antebellum" is a word that refers to the pre-Civil War American South, the defining trait of which was (say it with me) slavery. So after a couple of centuries the flag itself remains stigmatized, but a "country" group naming themselves after the values it represents is mainstream. So could a band named Kristallnacht reach the to of the charts in the future as long as they don't rock an actual swastika?

And while we're here let me put another related question forth.

This is UFC heavyweight champion Cain Velasquez:



The question is obvious.
What say you?

[Ben]

You make good points, especially about Asian politics being extreme (the recent China/Japan dispute over a bunch of tiny, uesless rocks in the middle of the ocean comes to mind). I also modified my post to include the right link. I had a dozen windows open and in my haste I attached the wrong one. Whoops.

I was going to include the Stars and Bars in my post but I was pressed for time earlier. I think that one is a little trickier, but only because it has been mainstreamed to a degree as you pointed out. You could make the argument that it represents freedom from tyranical government or something, but that's really only true from a white male's perspective. I think the fact that it was used exclusively by a government (and later, by certain governors) that was in favor of maintaining slavery and the oppression of blacks is enough to make it a no-no. I do find it interesting that even up here in the North you can buy a Stars and Bars at most local hobby stores, though.

The reason I thought you might be rolling your eyes at the outcry over this Rising Sun incident is because I know it takes a lot to offend you. I'm not a fan of Swastika tattoos, white supremacy, or rubbing horrific past events in people's faces, but I also can't fucking stand people whose only purpose in ever leaving the house is to take offense at something. We've discussed this before, and I doubt I've given any false impressions that I value political correctness.

Having said that, I think there's a definite line between "acceptable, but possibly not so cool" and "offensive to a large number of people." I think that's where the difference between the Rising Sun and the Swastika lies. In the case of Valasquez, his tattoo isn't offensive to me, and I think he falls into the former category. The dude is proud of his heritage and being darker than us honkeys. That's cool. What IS offensive to me is that I'd be condemned by the media and probably forced out of the sport by negative publicity if my chest said "Aryan Pride" or "White Pride." It's oppressive if I do it, but it's a sign of solidarity when Valasquez does it. Riiiiiiiiight. Which is why my whole stance on these matters pretty much boils down to "get over it." Like in that link I posted (now updated)- I advise checking it out.

[trashcanman]

Well, in my opinion the difference between White Pride and Brown Pride is that there aren't any major non-gang atrocities linked to Mexican racism. While Mexicans are just as capable of racism as anyone else, they don't have a history (that I'm aware of) of stringing up other races as a result of their racial "pride" and don't have organizations like the Klan saying "we aren't against other races, we're just proud of being white" with a history like theirs, pretty much ruining that as an acceptable use for white people whereas with non-whites we are able to take the same phrase at more or less face value. Either way I think it's dumb, but it doesn't upset me.

There's always the matter of intent. If somebody rocks a swastika or whatever as a way to intimidate other people, they can go fuck themselves. But I was watching the "Lemmy" documentary a while back and his house is PACKED with nazi stuff. When they asked him about it he just basically said that nazis have the coolest looking shit so he digs it and anybody who thinks he supports the ethos attached to it doesn't know the first thing about him so fuck 'em. And clearly that's the same deal with GSP's gi so I wouldn't fault him. But at the same time, I don't have any real firsthand experience with Korea's cultural hatred of Japan so I can't judge Jung for speaking his mind since he did it in a very respectful manner. I don't really roll my eyes over people getting offended by reminders of horrific things so much as idiots who are offended by inconsequential things like fiction or verbal slang. But if I was unknowingly wearing something that brought really negative feelings for somebody else like GSP did and the let me know in that way, I'd likely apologize and refrain in the future to avoid the awkwardness even if I didn't relate to their feelings. On the other hand, this dopey bullshit about being offended by video games' depictions of women or Django Unchained using the N-word and stuff like that is worthy of all of my contempt.