9/11 conspiracy?

[mackshere]

Ok, I'm sure this topic has been thoroughly discussed here at the fortress, so no rants right now from Mackshere. Hopefully everybody has seen or heard of the documentary LOOSE CHANGE. In case you haven't and you are interested, here is a link...

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3719259008768610598#

I think this is the updated version from the one I watched a couple years ago, but I'm not sure. Hopefully this will raise some questions in your mind.

[trashcanman]

Timely. Have you seen "In Plane Sight" or "Painful Deceptions"? Amazing and damn near irrefutable in places that something was very wrong with the story we got. Here's a list of 9-11 conspiracy docs: www.911docs.net/#911_Documentaries

That's a lot of people with a lot of info that points in the same direction. But even knowing what I know and distrusting our government as much as i do, I'm not sure I can hop on this train. The Pear Harbor Conspiracy is a fact. FDR planned and allowed our people to die to garner public support to take down Hitler. Watchmen in real life. But at least there was sort of noble end to the means in that case, although I strongly disagree with it. Nothing at all has come from 9-11 but more and more death and hate which leaves the only motive as pure profit. And it's hard for me to believe that even Bush and his lot were that fucking evil.

[Ben]

"Loose Change" has been endlessly debunked. 90% of it was obvious bullshit.

For anyone who thinks differently, tell me this: If the people making these "conspiracy" documentaries were really onto something, why weren't they all killed before they could get the "truth" out? Surely, if Bush was evil enough to arrange the murder of 3000 innocent Americans he would have had someone take out these "Loose Change" loonies pronto. Am I wrong?

I don't believe the Pearl Harbor conspiracy either, though it's certainly more believable than any 9/11 conspiracy. Not that that's saying much.

[mackshere]

"The bigger the lie, the easier for people to believe."--Hitler

Never underestimate the evil that man is capable of. It took decades before the JFK conspiracy became recognized and accepted. The easy response to Loose Change and other "conspiracy theories" is to quickly disregard it. Just believe everything the media throws at you and carry on in your safe comfortable little world.
There are some FACTS about 9/11 that I cannot accept. Most notably, why was there no video survelliance of a plane hitting the Pentagon? We just see the wreckage with the explanation the plane totally disentegrated? Are you serious? No wings, cockpit, black boxes, charred bodies? It all disentegrated?! Please. There is no irrefutable evidence that could make me accept that Ben. I am pretty sure if a plane wrecked into my house, my work, my old high school, pretty much anywhere...it would be on tape or there would be remains of the plane. Any comments on that?

[trashcanman]

At least watch "In Plane Site", Ben and then post your rebuttal. Unless you fully explore both sides before coming to your conclusion you are only doing as you're told and that is never a good idea (see 1930's Germany). The Pearl Harbor conspiracy is FACT. Irrefutable. If you have facts to refute it with present them, but there is only one conclusion to be reached based on our own government's documents. FDR not only knew, he planned it. There was a list made by the military of actions that would lead to an attack on America by the Japanese. This list is publicly available. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE THINGS ON THAT LIST WAS SYSTEMATICALLY DONE. Among other things we already had American planes in China shooting down Japanese bombers, we essentially embargoed their island to cut off supplies, and we put our entire Navy in PH which was the military equivalent of putting a gun to Japan's head and then we let them make the next move. Why else would they attack a much larger emerging superpower with nearly infinite resources when they were already engaged in a full-scale invasion of Asia? Seriously, man. Nothing in this world disturbs me more then the fact that so very many people are willing to accept the Disney version of history without utilizing even an ounce of common sense. The Indians didn't just give us this land because we are so cool, either. Neither did Mexico. Also, apartheid is bad. Genocide as well. Your government lies to you. A lot. Sorry.

Don't you think systematically exterminating hundreds (maybe thousands) of people that few are listening to to begin with would only be proof positive that those people were correct, draw attention to it, and expose a conspiracy for good? That's the worst idea for a cover-up ever. The very best thing to do is ignore it and let O'Reilly and co. call names and ridicule while blacking out any actual public discussion on the topic. If you don't see it on TV or in the paper, you'll never know it happened, correct? This is the basis our reliance on the media and how it allows us to literally be mind-controlled. knowledge is power. They have it, we don't. We know what they want us to know and nothing more and most of us are comfortable with that. Bad times ahead.

I'd still prefer that religious extremism caused 9-11 and the rest is just camera tricks and lies. The alternative is just mind-boggling. But what do the conspiracy theorists have to gain by persisting in this at this point? Nothing. Exactly. That alone gives them the upper hand in the debate when the government chooses to ignore the large number of legitimate questions and they appear to have everything to lose while blatantly withholding vital information. Any way you look at it, this is one fucked up topic and I doubt the book will ever be closed.

Hey Mack, I thought the JFK conspiracy has been accepted as fallacious? It seems to me that the "LHO acted alone" theory is considered the most probable at this point.

[mackshere]

Right on trash. And the entire world has been searching diligently for bin Laden for 8 years but cannot find him. He is real sneaky like that.
I do not really blame anyone for being complacent and accepting the lies that are being hurled at them on a daily basis. The truth can be so fucking scary.
I have discussed 9/11 with my mother, and she refuses to acknowledge some things that are just common sense. And I do not try to convince her otherwise. But I think our generation and our kids desperately need to be aware of the truth. Or at least the possibility that we are being lied to.

[Ben]

Mackshere- Bodies were recovered from the Pentagon crash site, and wreckage from the plane was too. I don't know what you're talking about. They found the tail number from the plane at the crash site, among other things. Just because you can't see it in the video (which has the shittiest frame by frame I've ever seen) doesn't mean anything. There were loads of eyewitness who saw it happen. People on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon even called relatives before it crashed and told them it had been hijacked by terrorists carrying knives.

By the way, we've been searching for bin Laden long before 9/11. He didn't just disappear right after 9/11.

And since when has the JFK conspiracy been considered "recognized and accepted?"

Trashcanman- I agree with your spiel about the media, but it makes little sense to believe in a conspiracy simply because the theorists have nothing to lose. I'll admit, I don't know much about the Pearl Harbor conspiracy, but I skimmed over it once upon a time.

I have, on the other hand, done my research on the 9/11 conspiracy, and no more rebuttals are going to change my mind. The evidence all points to terrorism. I like a good conspiracy theory just as much as anyone, and 9 times out of 10 I even want to believe it, but I'm not going to accuse the Bushies of killing 3000 of our own people on the basis that our media is controlled and the c. theorists have nothing to lose when all the evidence points away from an inside job.

In my opinion, 9/11 is one of the weakest conspiracy theories out there. Much more interesting to me is The Battle of Los Angeles, or the Masonic conspiracy theories.

[trashcanman]

And I thought "The Battle of Los Angeles" was just a sweet Rage Against the Machine album. I likey the Masons too. I'm not a big fan of coincidence and there are too many links to that group in our country's formation to ignore. Fascinating stuff. Can't wait for the Dan Brown book and movie starring Tom Hanks. Kidding.

I'm not throwing in with the 9-11 theorists either, but there is absolutely something wrong with what we've been told and not told. Here's link to that doc I want you to check out Ben. The dude does a hell of a job using only the things we've all seen already of breaking down the improbabilities and impossibilities of some of the things we were told. You should find it very interesting in it's extremely deliberate approach to examining the theories. I'd be interested to see what you think.
video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=2361717427531377078#

While a few select things have been debunked, there is a monstrous amount of claims and observations that have been entirely ignored which raises some red flags with me.

[mackshere]

People on the plane called love ones before they crashed? Wow, that is some amazing reception, I wonder who their wireless carrier is. Glad you are comfortable with the 9/11 spin Ben, but I am having serious doubts. Time will tell.

[Ben]

Well there are, uh, phones on planes, Mackshere.

Looking forward to checking that link out when I've got some time Trashcanman.

[mackshere]

Normally Ben, I'd feel inclined just to drop this subject and move on. But this is a very serious topic. Plus, I started this thread, so might as well keep it going.
I'll pour out some thoughts here, without citing sources or providing links. I am not claiming this to be undeniable truth.

First off, I'd say it would be safe to assume the U.S. has a strong military defense with the cutting-edge technology and weapons. I am fairly certain the idea of our homeland being attacked crossed some military minds. And as far as possible targets go, I imagine The Twin Towers would be high on the list. Not to mention The Pentagon. There would be plans set forth with quick reactions to any violation of the airspace, no? Those planes should have been shot down in all likelihood, long before reaching anywhere close to The Towers. But they did collide, as we all seen on camera. You might be able to chalk that up to inept military reaction time. Maybe, but I strongly doubt it.

Anyway, Have you ever heard of a single building throughout history being hit by a plane and collapsing completely? You haven't, because it has never happened. Sure, planes have crashed into buildings before, and set fire to several floors. Empire State Building for instance. The explanation given was the highly volatile rocket fuel seeped down through the elevator shafts and ignited whatever in the kitchen? All this despite the strict regulations banning any explosive devices in the building. In any building of that magnatude, I imagine. It just doesn't add up.

The strangest part of the collapse is the fact that a third building also collapsed that day. I can't remember which building, but it was some sort of gov't building that possibly held facts that were being investigated that could implicate some politicians. It crumbled to the ground, I guess due to the shockwaves from the others collapse. A little too convenient.

But really, my main question is about the plane that crashed into The Pentagon. On camera we are just shown the smoke and debris. We have never been shown actual footage of a plane hitting The Pentagon. WHY? That is a huge question. I am sure there has to be some cameras on this building, wouldn't you agree?

Don't mistake the fictional UNITED 93 movie as a live footage documentary. That's about a different plane altogether, anyway. We were never shown, on camera, any actual solid proof of a large plane hitting The Pentagon. Nor the aftermath. No cockpit, wings, seats, blackboxes, dead bodies being hauled off. Even the damage done to The Pentagon was superficial. If you know of a link that shows solid evidence to contrast this, I would love to see it.

I also heard about the phone calls being made from a plane, from cell phones. Not from airplane phones. The voice, which sounded exactly like one of the victims, supposedly said to his own mother--"Hello this is Mike Johnson" (or whoever). Would stating your last name really be necessary when talking to your own mother? Sounds suspicious to me.

After 9/11, Bush made an important speech to rally the country for war. He also mentioned something like "let there be no talk of conspiracy in regards to this tragic event". Why would you not want to fully investigate any possibilities, unless you had something to hide?

One last thing that I find is highly improbable--within 48 hours of the catastrophic event, 2 I.D.'s were retrieved from Ground Zero implicating the guilty Al-Queida pilots. Seriously? Black boxes destroyed, but these id's were relatively unscathed?


Anyway Ben, I hope you took the time to read this and consider some things. More importantly, I hope you make time to watch one of the above links and think about THE FACTS surrounding the event. It is difficult and frightening, but also very important.

Good discussing this with you Ben, and I really do wish I was able to share your beliefs. We all deserve to know the truth.

[Ben]

I am also glad to discuss this topic, since it's one of the few conspiracy theories I have researched that I have completely dismissed as false.

Military defense- It's a myth that we've got squadrons of jet fighters flying around our major cities every day for defense against enemies. While I'm sure you're right in saying we have plans of action in the event of a terrorist threat, it's not like we have fighters we can scramble to any given target in 5 minutes. I remember reading once upon a time that on any given day, there are only 8-12 jet pilots on immediate standby for events such as 9/11 on the whole East Coast.

As for your second two paragraphs, I won't go into detail because both topics have been extensively explained and the conspiracies debunked many times. The information is out there explaining the collapse of all three buildings.

The Pentagon footage you are talking about was shot on a shitty camera with a poor frame by frame rate, explaining why you only see the plane in the footage right before the crash and not as it goes into the building.

The explanation for the lack of damage to the Pentagon is simple: A plane with a 60' wingspan (I believe this was the length, though my memory may be wrong) is not going to make a 60' hole in a building. It's not going to make a looney tunes plane-shaped hole in the walls of the Pentagon. The wings are going to break up and come off upon impact, and only the fuselage is going to do any real damage. This is exactly what happened.

As for the wreckage, again, they did recover a bunch of it. I remember reading that the identification number on the tail and a lot of the cockpit was recovered, among other debris from the plane.

Bush's speech? Coincidence. Trying to quell panic and fear. What he said doesn't directly apply to anything in the conspiracy theories.

Same with the phone calls. Saying your last name to your mother, while unnecessary, does not have anything to do with the conspiracy theories being true or false.

Hadn't heard that ID portion before, so I'm not going to comment there.

Sorry if any of my response is a little shallow on info, but I don't have the time this week to reply to the extent that I would like to.

[mackshere]

You remember reading about some debris being removed from The Pentagon? Why hasnt anyone ever seen live footage? Doesn't that seem strange? We were shown pictures of the flames and smoke immediaetly after the so-called crash. but nothing from the plane was caught on camera. I think it is obvious there is more to the story.

But, I will drop this now. There isnt much more I could say, and you seem pretty firm in your beliefs.